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  #76  
Old 17th October 2016, 02:45
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Originally Posted by WhamMan View Post
I think you're both right.

I think the music industry has closed ranks to protect George. We know about what Elton said recently while performing and I've noticed Ken Bruce on BBC Radio 2 sometimes makes remarks about George's pedigree like he know's something. I suspect his situation is well known amongst people like that and they are of course being discrete and supportive.

The media confuse me. I'm surprised we haven't seen more in the British tabloids. I suspect they either know the truth and are sitting on it until they can deliver it with greatest impact (like when he comes back) or there is a bounty out to get a story. Be sure they won't be protecting George.

Funnily enough I think George has done the most damage to his long term, loyal fan base - ie us. The general public won't be counting the fact it's been x years since the last album and will welcome him back just fine if the music is half decent.

For some of us on here I just don't think things will be the same again unless George can really draw a line under the past and move on. We know a little too much about him and that's the danger of having such a dedicated fan base. The painful part for me is I think George has quite consciously been trading his loyal fan base for a wider, transient fan base across the general music loving public for some years. That's just my view but it leaves me feeling like we've been treated shabbily. It was us who supported George and helped build his career in the first place.

Right now I feel more passion for getting behind Cliff Richard's cause than I do George's as he knows what side his bread is buttered and brought none of his agro on himself.
I don"t know what to think any more to be honest. I can't believe at his age he is trying to engage a new audience. That's just not realistic. However, his "perfectionist" nature will still be there as that's who he is - maybe it is simply he feels that whatever he does now just isn't good enough for general release (thinking wider than just the fans). Lets be honest, his loyal fans will enjoy whatever he does but for him that's not good enough - he has to please them as well as general critics. That is different from wanting to gain a new audience...it's wanting an objective listener to say "hey that's good" and getting general respect. That's where i think he differs from the likes of Cliff Richard, or even Elton John! It's not necessarily a good thing for his fans (indeed its quite frustrating) but it's who he is.
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  #77  
Old 17th October 2016, 03:40
WhamMan WhamMan est déconnecté
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Originally Posted by Parklife View Post
I can't believe at his age he is trying to engage a new audience.
Well it's not so much a new audience, for instance as might be sought by releasing a dance music album.

But I come back again to the all important 'Radio 2 audience'. This is a vast army of loyal listeners who know the station puts out great playlists of artists past, present and future. Furthermore Radio 2 will get behind artists like Jeff Lynne and recently Shakin Stevens to reboot their careers. You can bet both artists have picked up vast numbers of new fans courtesy of Radio 2 and it's this type of 'new fan' I'm referring to. As long as George comes back with a decent enough album, the likes of Radio 2 will get behind him and help him win new fans.

George said many years ago that if he lost all his money he believed his musical gift would allow him to rebuild his fortune in due course. And I just think he sees his long time fans the same way in that he can always get new ones. Why else would you treat your loyal fans like George has if he didn't think they were disposable?
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  #78  
Old 17th October 2016, 03:51
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I have nothing to say about the stolen pics. most important thing is to know if he is fine. I dont like stupid gossip.
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  #79  
Old 17th October 2016, 04:29
Angelfish Angelfish est déconnecté
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I always thought he was, in general, of different character than your average pop stars.
(Although his endorsement of that vogue video has really been pivotal in my opinion of him)

After reading Parklife and WhamMan's last two comments I've been sitting here speechless.
If this is how he is...

Maybe I was right. Maybe he is different.

Maybe he is worse.


Sigh.
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  #80  
Old 17th October 2016, 05:44
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Maybe because I am a relatively new fan (3 yrs now) of GM, I do not share the negativity toward him. Yes, it would have been better if he had released more original materials. However, circumstances had prevented that from happening. The latest unfulfilled promise of releasing a new album can be explained by his health crises (two near death experience during the last 4 yrs, no less).

Like Parklife, I also think his perfectionism and his monopoly in doing things by himself (writing, composing, producing, singing, sometime backup singing) do not help increase productivity. Besides, if he wants to, he definitely can release more live albums and DVDs, such as unplugged concert (finally included in reissue of LWP), C&C, Faith concerts, Wham to China, the Final, Symphonica. I am not sure the reason for not releasing them, but it does not seem to be because he is greedy. Quite opposed.

If one looks at his four original solo albums, they are quite different in terms of style and theme. George had mentioned several times that he is not interested in repeating previous success. this means he as an artist wants to evolve. but this may also mean that he could lose some old fans who may not like his changed styles. It is reasonable for him to want to have new fans while keeping old fans.
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  #81  
Old 17th October 2016, 12:05
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qp65 View Post
Maybe because I am a relatively new fan (3 yrs now) of GM, I do not share the negativity toward him. Yes, it would have been better if he had released more original materials. However, circumstances had prevented that from happening. The latest unfulfilled promise of releasing a new album can be explained by his health crises (two near death experience during the last 4 yrs, no less).

Like Parklife, I also think his perfectionism and his monopoly in doing things by himself (writing, composing, producing, singing, sometime backup singing) do not help increase productivity. Besides, if he wants to, he definitely can release more live albums and DVDs, such as unplugged concert (finally included in reissue of LWP), C&C, Faith concerts, Wham to China, the Final, Symphonica. I am not sure the reason for not releasing them, but it does not seem to be because he is greedy. Quite opposed.

If one looks at his four original solo albums, they are quite different in terms of style and theme. George had mentioned several times that he is not interested in repeating previous success. this means he as an artist wants to evolve. but this may also mean that he could lose some old fans who may not like his changed styles. It is reasonable for him to want to have new fans while keeping old fans.

This isn't about some long term negativity towards him, at least not from me. It's only recently that I'm really beginning to question agendas, what's really going on here and whether or not he cares at all about his fans. I'm fully aware of circumstances that have likely interrupted 'new' material.

I don't really care if he doesn't release new material. His voice and lungs and general health may not be up for it anyway, which is a pity, but he's been smoking various things for so long I wouldn't be surprised.

I'd generally have defended him. But I don't know what to think anymore.

I think what bothers me is most the total lack of regard and respect for his fan base over the last year or so. It's bothering me more now because it seems like they're gearing up to try and sell stuff and that's what it's taken to get any sign of life at all. After watching fans plead, send messages, asking just to know if he's alive.. and being ignored.

By the way, albums don't take as long to make as the industry would have you believe, even if you're doing it single handedly. And I've been told this by a famous recording artist directly. I'm not just guessing. Big labels and big stars tend to drag things out... If his 'perfectionism' is that much of a hindrance, it's more than a personality quirk, and sounds more like mental illness.

Also, that 'repeating former successes' excuse is getting really old.

By that logic releasing an album at all is a 'former success'.
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  #82  
Old 17th October 2016, 13:40
Onef*ckfantasy Onef*ckfantasy est déconnecté
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Originally Posted by qp65 View Post
Maybe because I am a relatively new fan (3 yrs now) of GM
This is the crux of it. Most people here have followed his career for a very long time - thirty years or more. And some of us are tired of waiting around, being promised things, of being let down, of going from being so hopeful for this emerging singer songwriter to feeling despondent about his squandered talent. Also a growing sense that GM - or certainly his team - don't respect or value your loyalty as you thought they did. You need to have been a fan for a very long time to understand that disappointment.
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  #83  
Old 17th October 2016, 14:22
cowboysandangels cowboysandangels est déconnecté
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Why? From one angle it's very simple really. A man who always wanted to be taken seriously now struggles to find an audience willing to take him seriously. The reasons and incidents behind this are well-documented.
I should probably clarify my point about an 'audience' being most applicable to non-fans, but an increasingly large portion of his fanbase would also probably struggle on the credibility front these days - fuelled not-least by the blanket silence we've had from his team for years now.

We discussed this elsewhere, but I recall reading that he was crushed by the reaction he received in general to his anti-war stance and I suspect that will have contributed in no small measure to his self-imposed gagging-order. IMO a lot of that went back to the LA incident: (some) people may forgive but they certainly don't forget very quickly.

Anyhow as ever I find myself forced to also remind people that we have literally no idea where he is mentally, physically, or emotionally anymore. So much of this is all just conjecture.

What I will also add though is I was looking at an article only last night which reminded me how much the drugs had impacted him - this was from 6 or 7 years ago - the judge's sentencing statement when he went to prison was quite illuminating in terms of the evidence which was stacked against him - he has been suffering from anxiety and taking the drugs for it for a long time. And as someone who's seen this firsthand, I really don't think people appreciate how big an impact mental health can have on people. It really is a shame more isn't said or done about it.

Lars von Trier has some great work in this area actually - said some stupid things about Nazi's in the past but try watching Melancholia or (if you're brave enough!) Antichrist, or even one of his earlier works like Breaking the Waves - subject matter can be quite depressing but I always found his work thought-provoking.

Anyhows back to George... I do find his situation tragic. I'm not sure whether the Ken Bruce's or EJ's of this world are really all hugely-privy to the reality of the situation, but what I am sure of is that they are people who know greatness when they hear it. George had so much potential. What really saddens me is how things have unfolded ever since LWP's release. Just look at where he was in 1980, 1990, 2000, and 2010 as milestones in his life if you like:

1980 - George would've had ambition but no idea at all of what the next 10 years had in store for him - he was as ordinary in many ways as any man on the street - a virtual unknown

1990 - Literally on top of the world with Wham, Faith, and LWP to his name - and with a vision for the next 10 years which was breathtaking in terms of where he wanted to be as a singer/song-writer in the next decade (I remember reading an interview about it and feeling so proud of his aims back then)

2000 - Deaths, Sony, Outing via the LA incident - 10 years earlier he would've had no idea things could get this bad

2010 - Served jail time - again 10 years earlier I doubt he would've thought it was even possible that he could end up in such a mess

What we've been robbed-off is a genius IMO. We could've had an incredible body of work from this man. Still hard to take.

There's a part of me that understands all people, and especially artists, need freedom to develop and explore and be inspired, and in many cases, move on from their artistry altogether, even if perhaps only temporarily.

But there's also a part of me that is in awe of a gift that special. When it's that special, it really must be respected for a lifetime. Sometimes I find it hard to make excuses for him when it's plainly obvious that the respect is missing. Has been missing perhaps for a very long time.

Sorry, enough ramblings... better do some work.
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  #84  
Old 17th October 2016, 16:03
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Blah. Editing that all out.

TMI and just doesn't matter.

Last edited by Angelfish; 17th October 2016 at 16:26..
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  #85  
Old 17th October 2016, 19:07
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Originally Posted by Angelfish View Post
This isn't about some long term negativity towards him, at least not from me. It's only recently that I'm really beginning to question agendas, what's really going on here and whether or not he cares at all about his fans. I'm fully aware of circumstances that have likely interrupted 'new' material.

I don't really care if he doesn't release new material. His voice and lungs and general health may not be up for it anyway, which is a pity, but he's been smoking various things for so long I wouldn't be surprised.

I'd generally have defended him. But I don't know what to think anymore.

I think what bothers me is most the total lack of regard and respect for his fan base over the last year or so. It's bothering me more now because it seems like they're gearing up to try and sell stuff and that's what it's taken to get any sign of life at all. After watching fans plead, send messages, asking just to know if he's alive.. and being ignored.

By the way, albums don't take as long to make as the industry would have you believe, even if you're doing it single handedly. And I've been told this by a famous recording artist directly. I'm not just guessing. Big labels and big stars tend to drag things out... If his 'perfectionism' is that much of a hindrance, it's more than a personality quirk, and sounds more like mental illness.

Also, that 'repeating former successes' excuse is getting really old.

By that logic releasing an album at all is a 'former success'.
I have noticed that you have generally defended GM, but you may be influenced by the negativity on this forum lately (or you may not have been, my post was not toward you specifically). Still, as I said in my previous post, I kind of understand where the negativity is from by long-term fans.

As to communicating with fans, from what we know so far, George was clearly not in a good place after his falling from a 70mph running vehicle. I am not sure what exactly fans want from him in terms of keeping update on his status. If he says "I am not in a good place or in rehab", the tabloid press would have a field day. After the LA incidence, he was outspoken, which did not help.

As to low productivity, it seems that he experienced quite a lot writer's blocks during the last 15 years. it is his decision of not including more collaborators (I do not even know if this is true). In any event, he was in his prime until the end of 90s, and even then he was not exactly prolific compared with Elton or other more prolific artists.

How long does it take to record an album? I have no idea. However, I would argue if you do lots of things yourself, it would take longer than say having a producer and a band who helps put music part together, or having someone else to write the lyrics or music part. It is part of who he is anyway.

As to not repeating himself, the difference btw MIB or Faith and LWP or Older is pretty obvious to say the least. I guess what I am trying to say is that he could have released another Faith, but instead we got LWP which is much more in depth in so many ways. I personally think he peaked with Older. My only "could have" comment is that he could have release more masterpieces btw LWP and Older, but we know why it did not happen....
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Old 17th October 2016, 22:30
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Originally Posted by cowboysandangels View Post

Sometimes I find it hard to make excuses for him when it's plainly obvious that the respect is missing. Has been missing perhaps for a very long time.
Interesting you say this as there are so many interviews where he has specifically said that he did respect his songwriting gift and the main focus behind him stepping back after Faith was to protect that gift. I genuinely think he believed that and took actions in order to protect it for many years (some of which weren't necessarily beneficial to his career). I just think events took over and things happened (some tragic, some self inflicted) that simply meant that gift just wasn't as important to him as it once was. Life happens! There was a time where i only thought about work and moving up the ladder; i have other priorities now!
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  #87  
Old 17th October 2016, 23:10
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Originally Posted by qp65 View Post
I have noticed that you have generally defended GM, but you may be influenced by the negativity on this forum lately (or you may not have been, my post was not toward you specifically). Still, as I said in my previous post, I kind of understand where the negativity is from by long-term fans.

As to communicating with fans, from what we know so far, George was clearly not in a good place after his falling from a 70mph running vehicle. I am not sure what exactly fans want from him in terms of keeping update on his status. If he says "I am not in a good place or in rehab", the tabloid press would have a field day. After the LA incidence, he was outspoken, which did not help.

As to low productivity, it seems that he experienced quite a lot writer's blocks during the last 15 years. it is his decision of not including more collaborators (I do not even know if this is true). In any event, he was in his prime until the end of 90s, and even then he was not exactly prolific compared with Elton or other more prolific artists.

How long does it take to record an album? I have no idea. However, I would argue if you do lots of things yourself, it would take longer than say having a producer and a band who helps put music part together, or having someone else to write the lyrics or music part. It is part of who he is anyway.

As to not repeating himself, the difference btw MIB or Faith and LWP or Older is pretty obvious to say the least. I guess what I am trying to say is that he could have released another Faith, but instead we got LWP which is much more in depth in so many ways. I personally think he peaked with Older. My only "could have" comment is that he could have release more masterpieces btw LWP and Older, but we know why it did not happen....
Influenced by negativity here? I'm influenced by the recent things going on, combined with things I know of the past. Some of which I've learned about here. Many of these are people who've been following him for over 30 years and know every damn documented thing he's done.

Being a bit younger, and in the USA puts me at a disadvantage to have been up to speed all that time, but I don't normally follow artists quite that closely anyway. But I know all about his incidents and accidents. I have read/heard/seen a lot about GM. There may be experts here, and I may not be one of them, but I know plenty. If I'm influenced in any way by other people feeling let down or embittered, it's because I think they deserve better treatment and understand why they feel hurt and disappointed. Even now they're here, jaded or not. Marriages don't last 30 years anymore...

Btw.. He fell out of that car in may 2013. He was using Twitter in 2014 and 2015 I believe the last tweet was just before Valentine's Day 2016 (that one could've been his team, idk) anyway he was tweeting last year about things to do with the LWP 25 year anniversary. Other random stuff. It would take about 30 seconds to say, "hi, hope everyone is enjoying their weekend" or something. Fans would be SO grateful just for that! ( And I hadn't meant just GM himself. His official sites have been silent as a stone until very recently too. )

His fans? They are elated if he just says, hi. I've watched them beg on social media for an official statement or two words from George. "I'm ok" because they know what he's been through and literally were getting so worried by his silence they thought he was was dying, he has a VERY devoted and understanding fan base.

And obviously recording varies, but the person I was talking to does most of their own stuff as well. Writes everything, is an amazing instrumentalist and does a lot or all of their producing. They and a friend recently wrote and recorded a five song ep and it was released a few months later. The songs are all great. Yes they are high quality and professionally done. Maybe they wouldn't be GMs idea perfection, (and this is not pop seeking chart toppers, indie which I generally prefer) but there is no such thing as true perfection, anyway.

The differences in his albums are obvious, yeah, so are a lot of other artists... Styles of sound and lyrics reflect what's going on with them and the world around them. It's natural to evolve. It's also natural to get writers block from time to time. He's an autobiographical songwriter and has explained how he writes songs. So no, I don't think he could've released another Faith, nor do I think he should have. LWP was better IMO anyway, even if it wasn't as commercially successful.

Last edited by Angelfish; 17th October 2016 at 23:21..
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  #88  
Old 17th October 2016, 23:17
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Default The long goodbye

I've not contributed to these forums in years, but recently found myself drawn to them. As a long standing fan who has seen all the highs and lows, this time the absence seems different.

I've always felt historically that he genuinely valued his long suffering fans. In various interviews he's seemed sincere in mentioning that. Previously, there has always been an identifiable issue; Sony battle; bereavement, known ill health, Prison! Even after the pneumonia he wanted to get back to "not let the fans down". He didn't have to come back to finish the symphonica tour. Insurance would have sorted that. Indeed, he almost rushed back too quickly and mentioned this subsequently. Why? Because perhaps he had temporarily rediscovered a love of performing live, but clearly the fans must have played a part in his thinking.

This time is different. Prone to bouts of laziness throughout his career, he was either working hard and obsessively or...not doing much at all. His love of day time TV was quite obvious. We also know of the vanity and insecurity about his looks. Even when he looked great he wasn't always thrilled and took immense control over his "image". Only being photographed from one side etc etc. One thing I can say, is that in my opinion, if those pictures are genuine and reflective of how he looks, there is absolutely zero chance he will do anything publically while that is representative of how he is physically. Not a chance. By the way, I am not judging him or how he looks. This is one thing that has bothered him his whole life. Now, unfortunately, it may be that for medical reasons he can't do much about it, which is why he isn't saying anything. Think about it, every other enforced sabbatical, he has had someone else or something else to refer to as the cause, even when it was his own actions. I don't think he would break silence to refer specifically to either a serious medical condition or even a temporary medical condition if it meant him admitting that the reason he is absent is because of how he thinks he looks. He comes across as extremely proud and even more extremely stubborn in his pride. He's put on timber before, but not to this degree. He's lost it before and re-emerged slim and trim in a new Armani suit. If he hasn't said anything up until this point, I can't see him changing that and re-appearing...not unless he can find a way to lose a few stone and then he will hopefully re-emerge. Let us just hope that it isn't something permanent or more serious as I would then genuinely believe we will never see George publically again. He wouldn't even want studio technicians to see him! His ego is powerful but sated. I genuinely believe he'd be happier to never release anything ever again and be remembered for his existing achievements than to make the mistake Elvis made as a caracature of his former self. He once mentioned a distinct hate of being wheeled out in vegas as his 'former' self. Not George. He decided that long ago. Just my view. I feel for the fans and I think George willl too, but not over his pride. Get well soon...
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  #89  
Old 17th October 2016, 23:38
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Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
I've not contributed to these forums in years, but recently found myself drawn to them. As a long standing fan who has seen all the highs and lows, this time the absence seems different.

I've always felt historically that he genuinely valued his long suffering fans. In various interviews he's seemed sincere in mentioning that. Previously, there has always been an identifiable issue; Sony battle; bereavement, known ill health, Prison! Even after the pneumonia he wanted to get back to "not let the fans down". He didn't have to come back to finish the symphonica tour. Insurance would have sorted that. Indeed, he almost rushed back too quickly and mentioned this subsequently. Why? Because perhaps he had temporarily rediscovered a love of performing live, but clearly the fans must have played a part in his thinking.

This time is different. Prone to bouts of laziness throughout his career, he was either working hard and obsessively or...not doing much at all. His love of day time TV was quite obvious. We also know of the vanity and insecurity about his looks. Even when he looked great he wasn't always thrilled and took immense control over his "image". Only being photographed from one side etc etc. One thing I can say, is that in my opinion, if those pictures are genuine and reflective of how he looks, there is absolutely zero chance he will do anything publically while that is representative of how he is physically. Not a chance. By the way, I am not judging him or how he looks. This is one thing that has bothered him his whole life....
Great post. Sad but true.

And I wouldn't want him to 'do an Elvis'... But it's tragic his self esteem issues will keep him away from everything. I still think if he's going to basically retire, though, fans deserve at least a generic official statement for some closure... You can always come out of retirement...
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  #90  
Old 17th October 2016, 23:50
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Originally Posted by qp65 View Post
after his falling from a 70mph running vehicle.
Not quite true. If this did happen he would be dead. Period. I know the area, it was rush hour so it was maximum 30mph which is probably why he survived.
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